Skills shortage with Craig Smith

Craig Smith has worked in the engineering industry for over 2 decades. He notes that we are living in a real infrastructure boom, an era of mega projects.  And he’s deeply concerned about the real skills shortage being experienced in Australia. 

No longer can Australia rely upon engineers from overseas bolstering the engineering ranks, we must look towards our own society for the future engineering leaders of our community  

Extra discussions during the episode

This is a “close” copy of the words that were spoken during the Podcast, Season 5 Episode 7

It is not 100% accurate.
The guest was Craig Smith

Craig: [00:00:00] Something that I really enjoy is getting out and building that built environment here in Australia  

[00:00:04]Mel: [00:00:04] So you got your civil engineering degree in Queensland So what was the first thing that you did What was the first project you worked on after you finished university  

[00:00:14] Craig: [00:00:14] Oh look having having graduated in 1994 I remember  moving through into early 1995 and looking for a job in an engineering firm. And I was actually really fortunate to land a role in Bechtel Australia Back at the time. And Bechtel we’re building a $900 million Aluminium refinery Aluminium smelter sorry up in Gladstone. And this is back in the day where a $900 million projects where Mega project. So these were big projects!  

[00:00:41]I actually remember that I went to an interview for a really small designing construct foam in Brisbane And I went through the interview with the guy and he said look he said you’re the right person for the role You’re the graduate engineer for me He said if you got any other interviews? 

[00:00:55] I said look I do I’ve got this interview that at this company called Bechtel. Um and I think they’re a big American firm and I they’ve got to interview me next week. And he said, look he said if you can get an interview at Bechtel he said I’m not going to offer you the job today I can give you the job here and now but I want you to go and follow that interview up with Bechtel. And if you can get an interview your work for them That should be where you go That’s what you need to do in your career. 

[00:01:20] And look I look back now and I think that guy did me a huge favour, you know, in  commencing my work and you know going to Bechtel and operating as a cost control engineer On a Bechtel site it’s 900 million. And very quickly I moved from that cost control trending analysis style in the office to get out in the field and start moving that dirt again and supervise civil construction works in the paddock. And yeah, that was that was my first role in the civil industry. It was a very big project at the time and I’m probably looking back quite overwhelming, Yeah  

[00:01:51] Mel: [00:01:51] Yeah yeah $900 million Did you say ? 

[00:01:54] Craig: [00:01:54] In 900 million back in 1995 that was there was certainly some dollars going around nothing to sneeze at your right 

[00:02:02] Dom: [00:02:02] I definitely don’t know That’s that’s a big project these days  

[00:02:05] Mel: [00:02:05] and and your role there as the graduate engineer was the cost control Did you say your first role before you  

[00:02:13] Craig: [00:02:13] Yeah my yeah My first role was project controller it’s engineer which was a real management reporting style. It was a trending analysis budget allocation to packages, you know, racking up a water subcontract packages. that sort of management style. And I did that for about six months and I think they quickly recognized that I was sort of the outdoor-sy person to get out of there and do something more around that construction -orientated field. And that’s where I picked up My role as construction supervisor on the project and then got out of there and watched them move some scrapers and got some dozers going and compacted some fill and laid the foundations for what is now still a massive smelter they’re up in North Queensland  

[00:02:54]Dom: [00:02:54] so where are you working now You saying you with BMD.  What’s your role with them  

[00:02:58] Craig: [00:02:58] Yeah so my role with BMD currently is national general manager commercial and risks. I’ve been with BMD now for a little bit over 21 years. So we have a 20 year climb in BMD and I’m hitting the 20 year club is a is a major aspect in terms of the construction industry at BMD. We’re quite fortunate to work in a private company like that. And look  I’ve been there for a long time. I started as a project engineer very quickly after my Bechtel  days. Moved through to project management, construction management,  I was able to run my own division as a general manager for new South Wales for round about seven years. And then in all that time, been able to utilize all that experience that I gained from Moving around Australia taking the opportunities that were put in front of me, I was able to pick up a more senior role as national general manager for commercial and risk And overview what the company does  

[00:03:48]Dom: [00:03:48] Do you spend much time on site these days or is it very much an office bound job?  

[00:03:52] Craig: [00:03:52] Oh look it’s probably a little bit 50/50 you know. COVID has, COVID has slightest up a little bit in terms of traveling around Australia but I’ve started doing more travel now which is really good.  Do like to spend some time on site get out with our teams, catch up with our teams, look at what we’re doing on site.  Help mentor, get them in the right direction, ensure that we’re achieving the outcomes that we want to achieve  

[00:04:11]Mel: [00:04:11] Can I just clarify and it might be a standard question but what does your role entail  

[00:04:18] Craig: [00:04:18] Yeah So my role at BMD as that commercial and risk role, I really look at streamlining the overall commercial approach of the business. So making sure that our commercial approach is standard across the projects that we’re doing, the why they’ll be actually tender, overview of our estimating to make sure that our estimating and our pricing is correct. And then also ensure that our ultimate risk profile in terms of the contracts that we write and the style of projects that we’re taking on matches the appetite that our board expects. So it  gives me a vast understanding of the BMD construction business  

[00:04:51]Dom: [00:04:51] You’re based in Queensland now  

[00:04:53] Craig: [00:04:53] Yeah So I moved back from new South Wales area a couple of years ago, spending seven years in new South Wales, opportunity to come back to Brisbane After  doing about 17 years or lapse of Australia on ahh.. Construction sites was the opportunity to move back to Brisbane and come back home again  

[00:05:08] Dom: [00:05:08] And you mainly work in the infrastructure area of…  

[00:05:11] Craig: [00:05:11] yeah so rides and rail, you know wind farms, port works. Much more of that infrastructure that larger project style works whether we do water supply pipelines, whether we do water sewage treatment plant upgrades, that sort of major infrastructure style works  

[00:05:28] Dom: [00:05:28] Okay so that $900 million figure is sort of still well and truly in the realms of  the projects You’re working on these days  

[00:05:35] Craig: [00:05:35] Yeah probably not as probably not as big probably not as big but I tell you what it is getting up there Things seem to be getting bigger as we Australia with the way infrastucture works  

HOT TOPIC

probably the topic that I’d like to talk to yourselves about today is  One sort of close to my heart in terms of what we see in the industry.. Is the skill shortage, engineering skill shortage that we seem to come across in Australia now more and more. We are in one of the biggest construction booms that we’ve ever seen in Australia. Whether you’re a design engineer or whether you’re a construction engineer, whether you’re a mechanical engineer or an aerospace engineer, you know, Australia is in a boom. Even coming through COVID we’re in a boom. And What we’re actually seeing is that Australia has this finite engineering resource  available to us in terms of what we can build, what we can construct, what we can design. And having the resources available to us At this point as we see a real crescendo in the way infrastructure works are starting to take off across Australia, is that we really are seeing that skill shortage. We can’t have engineers really come in from overseas anymore, COVID effectively, really hampering that in terms of being able to bolster  the engineering that we have here in Australia. And we do see it, is that that skills gap is heating up in this mega project market that we’re seeing in Australia. And our inability to tap into that worldwide engineering market is leading to.. dare I say, people being promoted a little bit earlier Then probably what they’re ready for in terms of our industry because because of the nature of competition, the nature number of players out there in the market. We’re all vying for that same resource. And  do see it like the site engineer, you know, the project engineer level, the project management level, the design manager level… we do see people being promoted by the market because that finite resource, they need to get resources, They need to get their hands on people to build projects and they bring in them up very quickly.  

[00:07:36] Mel: [00:07:36] You’ve been in the industry for 25 years. Is this something that you’re seeing has progressively gotten worse over that time, or is this something new?  

[00:07:45]Craig: [00:07:45] When I think back it’s probably the last 10 years where we’ve actually really seen it, and we’re starting to see it crescendo now more and more as infrastructure works comes online. The challenge here is that the engineers  thrive on experience, right. Engineers actually experience to experience in terms of being able to handle the projects that they’re working on or the roles that they’re actually doing. They have finite roles, And when we tend to promote Quickly or too early when they’re not quite ready, then we end up with aspect of failure, or not being able to succeed in terms of the next level. And let’s be honest here,  we’re trying to create a generation of engineers here that are going to be the business leaders of the future. Now these graduate engineers that are coming through now these guys are the CEOs and the managing directors of a major companies in 20 years time and how we bring them through and mentor them and prepare them for these roles as they come through these businesses, lead to the sustainability of each business and to the success of themselves as well  

[00:08:45] Dom: [00:08:45] Do you tend to find the things like recruitment companies help this problem just purely because you get the younger engineers that are coming through, And because as you’re saying there is that shortage, You have recruitment companies that come in and sort of say I can get you so much more money If you come with me and go work at another firm. And of course the engineers don’t really understand, And if someone backed a truck of money up to my front door, Then you’ve obviously got to jump at the opportunity. But in reality as you’re saying people are getting pushed forward faster than than they really should. Do you think that that’s sort of a contributing factor to what’s going on?  

[00:09:19] Craig: [00:09:19] Um look I I think so. I think, Yeah, obviously recruiters have a role in terms of what they do as a business, They’re trying to recruit staff for projects. What I think we do see here is that companies, rather than operating and a level of retaining people for a long period of time,  look at project specific bases. And they employ for those project specifics.  And then they don’t look for that ongoing opportunity for those engineers into the future. I think that’s probably the aspect that’s actually driving Some of it, is that they’re looking for that short term on engineers entering the  construction project and then exiting the construction project, as opposed to looking for that 20 year club that I mentioned. You know I get to that 20 year club and  be promoted through the business and Take a senior role in the business when you’re ready. You know,  have some trust in the businesses that you’re working for, that we do have your best intent in mind, right? We actually want you to succeed, We want you to be the CEO or the general manager or that big project director one day. You know, we want you to develop through , it’s not just a single project We want you for. We want you for 20 and we want you to for a career in the industry that we’re working in.  

[00:10:28]Mel: [00:10:28] I’m just wondering, That 10 year Mark that you said that you’ve noticed in the last 10 years that there has been a real progression of the shortage of engineers, Do you feel that there’s something going on? Do you feel that there is a reason that this is occurring?  

[00:10:40]Craig: [00:10:40] Yeah I suppose it’s hard to put a finger on in terms of why it’s occurring. Now whether we’re seeing less engineers coming through the engineering market, we’re certainly out there we’re certainly delivering our fair share of lawyers through the universities, Currently. We’ve got plenty of those coming through. Whether we’ve got it right in that that engineering field  to match probably where the market is or where were now constructing, you know, we’re definitely seeing infrastructure spend in Australia much higher than we have previously as well. You know, we were talking about, And we’re rebuilding the Snowy Hydro Scheme Currently right. This is a iconic project from earlier last century, and now we’re Doubling it, we’re rebuilding it.  Which is great right? But at the same time we need some serious engineers, we need some serious people attached to that project designing the tunnel boring machines, monitoring the tunnel boring machines, fitting out the tunnel behind it. These all take significant resources And it may just be a, a resource aspect of what we’re seeing  

[00:11:40]Dom: [00:11:40] Are you finding the whilst There may not be the Retention in companies in regards to that longevity, are you finding that engineers are still staying in the profession or is it becoming a situation where people are working in the engineering field for a while and then getting taken by management and finance and all those other areas. Are engineer’s sort of staying in their field from what you’ve been seeing?  

[00:12:05]Craig: [00:12:05] I think so although I was reading a piece there recently, And it was it was around how  engineers and professional staff, because of the COVID environment are moving more towards  maybe their dreams or or picking up on what they wouldn’t have done previously there I think I was reading one there about an engineer that really wanted to be a baker And he went and and was making canolis, which was fantastic right, because he’s following his dream and Whether he would have done that pre COVID or post COVID it’s a little bit hard to tell, but it was an interesting read. But, you know, I’m all for people following their dreams Um  

[00:12:38] Mel: [00:12:38] to hear the story of the baker Who’s following their dream to become an engineer and like going the  

[00:12:43] Craig: [00:12:43] the other way around that’s right This is the baker of the follow is  

[00:12:46] Mel: [00:12:46] That’s  

[00:12:47] Craig: [00:12:47] needs to know about four years of hard engineering study at university Um to before we can actually jump on that tunnel boring machine and see how it goes  

[00:12:54] Dom: [00:12:54] I would like to say that he could sleep in later but on some of the sites he’d probably be still getting up early in the morning Anyway  

[00:13:01] Craig: [00:13:01] Yeah I’d suggest the baker is probably getting up far earlier than the  

[00:13:04] Dom: [00:13:04] Yeah that’s right  

[00:13:05] Mel: [00:13:05] So this whole topic about the skill shortage, that isn’t a new topic it’s something that’s been going on for a while,  what do you see as some potential solutions to the problem? And what can we put in place to ensure those engineers are on site to build this infrastructure that’s coming?  

[00:13:20] Craig: [00:13:20] Yeah I think there’s probably a two-fold answer there, Right? And I think we’ve got to break that answer down into what we as the industry can actually do  to retain and and promote those engineers correctly. And also as individuals what they can do is that um As a as I said they’re the future leaders. We need to, as an industry, we need to ensure that their experience is given to them, make sure that we’re putting opportunities in front of them That is going to develop them into those future leaders with us. We need to train.. Now we do hear about training often but we don’t need to gap analyze their skills And out specifically, each engineer’s different terms of where they’re at in their journey. And we do need to gap analyze where they’re at and specifically do training that actually meets the requirements that they need as businesses. We need to do that for them. We need to mentor and truly mentor and be part of that journey that that engineer is having. You know understand where he or she is at, understand what pressures they’re under on different project Sites, or in the design office, and talk to them and touch base with them and see what sort of help they need. And look, As I said before, they also need to trust the process, believe that the business has their best interests. And I think where we provide our engineers with experience and help shape their career, I think that’s what industry can do for them.  

[00:14:39] Dom: [00:14:39] Yeah I really liked that point where it costs to training them as well because I think that goes a long way to helping The engineers in their career. Because then that way they end up in the right portion of the industry. And it’s such a broad industry too that there are some people who just absolutely sensational when you put them in front of a set of drawings and they need to put together complex plans. And then there are other people who are outstandingly good at managing people. It’s very important in the early part of their career to sort of find out what they are passionate about and then you can sort of help guide them in the right direction. And they’ll hopefully encourage more people to come into the industry as well  

[00:15:15] Craig: [00:15:15] Absolutely I think it comes down to the individual as well, is that When the individual is looking at  what they’re doing in terms of being promoted or looking to change their roles or wanting to be promoted industry is today, is to look at when they are changing jobs or are changing companies is to work out has this company got my best interests at heart. Is this company going to provide me that training? Are they going to gap analyze me? Am I ready to take on this role? Am I a site engineer? Do I have the skills yet as a project engineer? Am I setting myself up for success? And then now can I succeed here? Can I actually make this work in a way that will support my career in the future As as I work my way through that engineering ranks and up through into senior management?  

[00:16:00]Mel: [00:16:00] So the the solution there that you’re talking about is for people who are Actually already in the engineering industry.  Is that more that you’re finding that it’s the difficulty is keeping them in and keeping them on the job?  Cause I have heard that there is an issue with getting engineers into university start with like getting students to select engineering? Is that something that you’ve experienced as well  

[00:16:26]Craig: [00:16:26] Yeah I think so I think I think at the end of the day I think that Sometimes engineers don’t sell themselves as well as we could. Sometimes they need to be a little bit more out there in terms of what we do in the world and how we help the whole sustainability of humanity in terms of what we do. And I’d love to talk further around what I would say to engineers, anyone that’s actually thinking about coming into a university role for engineering.  

[00:16:50] Mel: [00:16:50] We will actually getting to that one.  

[00:16:53]What would you say to an engineer just starting out  

[00:16:57] Craig: [00:16:57] Oh look I think I think I’d say that engineering is a really rewarding career.  You know over, over my time I’ve seen some brilliant pieces of infrastructure built and I’ve been involved in working with teams that are actually worked beyond their peak. Like worked in alliancing projects where people actually work passed what they  actually think their performance can be and work outside the box in a collaborative environment that shows you how good you can actually be and how you can actually be better than  you think you are in terms of the goals that you set yourself. But now I’d say that engineering you can influence, you can lead, you can innovate, you’re creating a broader future for humanity. Now these are Engineers Australia’s mantra right, In terms of What we’re producing for engineers in Australia. But, You know, if you weren’t considering a career in engineering is that now is your time. With one of the biggest infrastructure spends that Australia has ever seen is that it’s going to go on for a number of years. If you were considering going into engineering, it’s highly rewarding, both financially and mentally experience- wise it’s highly rewarding. And um many firms out there want to invest in our people. We have been want to invest in our people, We want to invest in our engineers. They want you to have a successful career. We want you to have experience in the industry and, you know, opportunity to move around Australia, opportunity to move to major cities and opportunities to do things that other people could only dream of doing  

[00:18:24]Dom: [00:18:24] So just on that what are your thoughts on the future of engineering  

[00:18:28] Craig: [00:18:28] yeah the future of engineering And that’s an interesting question as well but. But the future of engineering, as humanities knowledge and  needs increase, the demands on engineering will just continually grow. The engineering world As we know it is constantly changing. We looked at companies such as you know let’s look Elon Musk, space X. Here’s a company that shows the future of engineering and the  possibilities of engineering are actually endless. Now in in a hundred years time , you know, our current aeronautical, agricultural,  bio medical engineers could be developing the skills and the designs that actually see us living on Mars.  These are aspects that Elon Musk actually promotes is that, we need engineers that can actually do that. You know, we need sustainable cities, We need green cities. Now  I’m out there And part of my role building roads and bridges and  wind farms and so forth, is that driverless car technology is a reality. You know in 10 or 20 years time the bridges that we’re building, the roads that we’re building, Hopefully these are structures of the past, right? Hopefully these are something that we don’t need anymore. These electric cars and driverless technology, I hope so you know it’ll be more greener, it’ll be more sustainable. And I think this is where the future of engineering is. We go back a hundred years,  we go forward a hundred years and and what we’re capable of is only growing And  this is where engineers can really help that greater Community in terms of where they live and what I can improve on  

[00:20:04] Mel: [00:20:04] it’s the future is, it just it feels so unknown. Cause it’s one of those things where you look at a short term and you go Oh nothing really much changes, But then when you look over a longer term like you look back a hundred years I’m like Oh my God that a lot has changed, It’s almost unrecognizable in some aspects. But at the same time there are some real like you still drive on a road, but now the roads look bigger and wider and more cement and things. So it’s a real difficulty, I find to project into the future. Yeah Are you going to be building roads on Mars in a hundred years time? Like is that what you’re kind of gearing up for  

[00:20:40] Craig: [00:20:40] Yeah I’ll have to I’ll have to talk to  our estimating department that’s gonna cost Um I’m not sure we’ll be able to benchmark pricing for that but I’m sure I can come up with an estimate  

[00:20:51] Mel: [00:20:51] you could and there’s going to be a lot 

[00:20:57] Dom: [00:20:57] in Australia you might be having a few more out there So  

[00:21:01] Craig: [00:21:01] They won’t be able to get off the planet too easily They will lie  

[00:21:04] Dom: [00:21:04] all very true  

[00:21:07] Mel: [00:21:07] Maybe they’ll improve it in those days. Um so just to finish it up what’s the piece of engineering that’s impressed You  

[00:21:14]Craig: [00:21:14] Now  for a piece of engineering to impress me it’s it’s really got to be complex. Right It’s got to be complex, It’s gotta look good, It’s gotta look the part, It has to be impressive in terms of their greater environment that it sits in.  I’ve seen some impressive structures in in my travels. The opportunity to ride  on tunnel boring machines underground. I’ve had a opportunity to walk  cross the top of the Hoover dam and sort of contemplate  what that isn’t how much concrete’s in the Hoover dam. I’ve had opportunity to be in the Metro tunnels in uh Hong Kong. Well look when it comes down to it I’ve got two pieces  of Australian infrastructure that that impressed me. And they are actually side by side and they’re the Harbor bridge and the Sydney opera house. You know here’s two structures the Harbor bridge complex in its construction built in a time when you know technology  was a minimum in terms of what we know now in terms of construction. And then you know next to the harbor bridge we’ve got the Sydney opera house, Iconic structure sitting on the abutting piece of land. The construction of the sales. These two pieces really symbolized to me what it is to be Australian what it is to have Australian engineering feats here on our own doorstep. And look I can’t think of anything better than those two  

[00:22:29] Mel: [00:22:29] It actually means a lot coming from somebody who’s not from Sydney. To to hear that sort of comment. I mean I’m I’m such a Sydney-sider that I’m you know I bleed blue. But is that the right color? I don’t know I don’t follow rugby. But um yeah it is Okay Um but and so I naturally have this you know I get choked up when I if I’m overseas and I see that or even when we watch movies like Oh this is Sydney opera house or something like that But um to hear it from you know a Queensland boy is it means a lot  

[00:23:02] Dom: [00:23:02] But the engineering behind those two iconic landmarks is it’s just amazing as well. I mean the the story of um Yeah the opera house And even with all of the the trials and tribulations in regards to um actually getting completed. But, to this day you go in there and you walk you really can’t appreciate it until you walk in and you sort of stand either outside of it and looking or go inside and sort of have a look at the structure and how it’s all put together And it’s just astounding. And particularly with what was available back then, the resources and the technology. It wasn’t as though they had computer simulations and you know  

[00:23:42] Craig: [00:23:42] get any we didn’t have drones flying out over the top, we didn’t have  the survey setouts that we have now. You’re underneath the opera house, underneath the Opera House, There’s carved tunnels  in sandstone down there which weren’t built by the tunnel boring machines or roadheaders. These things were carved out of sandstone  decades ago in terms of having actors be able to go through these tunnels and up the stairs and to the opera house.  These are spectacular pieces of engineering that um that sit there and we you know we don’t even see that bit  

[00:24:11] Dom: [00:24:11] No that’s it And it just makes you think in the future what are they going to be Those those pieces of engineering that can potentially surpass  something that the two pieces of engineering that have been sitting there for yeah very very long very long time now. So just to finish up, do you have an engineer that you admire  

[00:24:30] Craig: [00:24:30] I’ll keep With my theme of what I’ve been doing. I’ve been putting out a bet in either way on each of these so far I’ve still got two here as well. Is that um Is it first is Archimedes. You know we go back decades, we go back hundreds of years here. But look Archimedes is that original classic engineer of all time, you know he’s that influencer that we spoke about earlier be it in mathematics, physics. His inventions are still well-known today, you know pully-systems,  pumping systems. You know he he really was you know the Elon Musk of his time.  If there was such a thing when we go back that far.  

[00:25:04]And the second one is Elon Musk. Now the juriesout on whether Elon is actually an engineer or not. I’m real I’m supposed to be a scientist. He’s an economist. He’s supposed to read so much of the debates out on whether he’s an engineer, but let’s look at it. Does he use scientific principles? Yeah. Does he problem solve? Yes. So he’s got all the traits of the engineer and yeah here we’ve got is a brilliant thinker. He’s is that brilliant thinker. He’s not thinking about what is possible. He’s thinking about what is probable .And he’s making that occur. And we spoke earlier around you know where we end up putting people on Mars and living on Mars. He uses engineering principles to take us to places that we can only dream about. We talked about electric cars, We talked about space X.   I think Elon’s business was a little bit more profitable than Archimedes  

[00:25:51] So it’s um definitely engineer or not, It’s a hard on to work out.  

[00:25:56]  Mel: [00:25:56] Time will tell with that.  

[00:25:57] They’re very diverse Those two, Archimedes and Elon,but they’re great  stories to end on. So thank you so much for joining us today  

[00:26:05] Dom: [00:26:05] Yeah it was great speaking with you Thank you so much  

[00:26:08] Craig: [00:26:08] No absolutely And it’s been a real pleasure I thank you very much.  

OUTRO

And thank you for listening to another great episode of engineering heroes. As we present the new dawn of engineering challenges for engineers Australia. You can view our show notes or learn more about our podcast by visiting our website, www.engineeringheroes.com.au. 

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We look forward to you joining us next week when we bring you in another interview with one of our engineering champions.